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"ticking" sound injected into guitar output

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#21 Henrik

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:05 PM

View Postmusic-to-my-ears, on 05 February 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

Ok dumb question/hypothesis, as I'm not much of an analog aficionado:  The noise disappears entirely when at full volume.  If it were merely inductively coupled noise, I wouldn't expect this to be the case, I'd think it would be there regardless, just louder as you increased volume if it's coming from the guitar end. However, if it's piggybacking on the power supply and the signal voltage differential on the POT somehow allows the noise to "float" on the differential, then could that explain the behavior?  What about adding a capacitor directly across the DIN power pins at the guitar end to decouple?

When the volume pot is turned all the way up, the output drivers on the DSP side are connected directly to the audio wire. This does of course, as you have experienced, the "ticking/clicking" to mostly disappear.   When the volume is only part way up (or down), the resistance caused by the potentiometer causes a voltage drop which does introduce the "ticking/clicking."  From what I understand, adding a resistor will not solve the problem.

#22 music-to-my-ears

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:18 AM

I think I have a working theory that's way better than the last though process.

Ok, let's say the noise is being induced on the wire that goes from the output (middle connection of the pot) to the midi connector, when midi is present.  To induce voltage, you need two things - induced current spikes and a resistive load.  Current spikes are provided courtesy of midi square waves (typically a 5mA current loop).  When you max the pot out, it connects directly to the audio output from the board, which bleeds the spikes off with capacitive coupling, essentially reducing them to zero and eliminating any "resistive load" that could present a voltage drop with the spikes.  However, once you introduce a resistance between the wire and this capacitive "load" (by reducing the output level pot), the spikes (current) have a resistive load it passes through, thereby creating a voltage superimposed on the output.

Make sense?

This could be why it disappears when you cut that wire - because it's being induced in that wire.  To eliminate it, a high-frequency pass to ground (capacitor) on the output should have the same effect as full volume....

#23 music-to-my-ears

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:42 PM

Any update or progress to report Henrik?  Or a projected progress report date at least?

#24 Henrik

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:24 PM

View Postmusic-to-my-ears, on 17 February 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Any update or progress to report Henrik?  Or a projected progress report date at least?

Have not heard anything more from Peavey about this issue.  Know that they are working on a solution.  Sorry about the delay.

#25 music-to-my-ears

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:09 PM

That's ok... as long as they're putting resources on it.  Seems like something to fix before more are sold, unless they can come up with an inline cable fix.

#26 old baldy

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 03:00 PM

Hi,

I know I'm late in to this discussion but I've only just got my AT200 and all the bits.  I found I can rid myself of the clicking noise by using a guitar cable with a mute switch built in.  I've used a Planet Waves Circuit Breaker Cable.  When I want to change things with the Midi controller I mute the guitar using the swich on the jack plug.  Seems to work perfectly and only takes a couple of seconds to do.

#27 Lanzoyd

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 10:41 PM

Hi everybody, I'm digging up this thread 'cause I'm still fighting with this problem on my AT-200. I've tried soldering off the wires coming from the volume pot going to the 8-pin connector, now audio no longer goes to the AT-200 box, but the ticking is still present (with audio jack connected to che 1/4 " on the guitar). I understood that the ticks occur everytime a MIDI message is sent to the guitar, which means Program Changes, Control Changes and all the others, including Active Sensing System Message, which is the one constantly occurring every 300ms (the famous "ticking").
My first thought was: "Ok, so if I write a program to cut off all MIDI messages except Program Changes I can still change my presets without having that constant ticking!". I did it, but unfortunately it came up with another problem: no more ticks now, but the only Program Change working was the first one sent after the AT-200 was started up, then all the following messages were completely ignored. This made me think that Active Sensing is NEEDED for the AT-200 to continue receiving messages after the first one.
Getting back to the standard configuration, with no Active Sensing bypass, I also noticed that there is an amount of time (around 1 sec) between sending Program Changes that must be waited, otherwise it won't change presets. This seems odd to me, as if I change presets with the "push the volume knob, then play a note on the E string" technique, i can slide on the string, changing presets almost instantly on every fret.

So here are my questions that, if answered, could lead to possible solutions:

1 - Has been found any way to avoid the ticking on the audio signal, as cutting the audio wire to the 8-pin didn't work?
2 - If not, is it possible to make Program Changes work all the time WITHOUT the constant sending of the Active Sense message?
3 - Have these problems been solved in the new DSP Board shipped with the Luthier Kit?

Thank you, I hope to hear some news asap.

Have a nice day.

#28 Henrik

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 03:56 PM

View PostLanzoyd, on 10 May 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:


1 - Has been found any way to avoid the ticking on the audio signal, as cutting the audio wire to the 8-pin didn't work?
2 - If not, is it possible to make Program Changes work all the time WITHOUT the constant sending of the Active Sense message?
3 - Have these problems been solved in the new DSP Board shipped with the Luthier Kit?

Thank you, I hope to hear some news asap.

Have a nice day.

Hello Lanzoyd,

There are a few things to try to eliminate the ticking when sending MIDI to the AT-200.  Cutting the audio wire from the volume to the 8-pin.  You mention that this did not help very much, so, please try and remove the shrink tubing around all of the wires where they attach to the 8-pin connector inside of the cavity and spread out the wires.  This should help.

Please keep in mind that the DSP board inside of the AT-200 is not manufactured by Antares.  Antares only supplies the software to the AT-200.

The ATG Luthier Kit has a completely redesigned circuit board to our specs and if you are interested in a higher performance version of the ATG technology, this may be the solution for you.  As I am sure you know, the ATG Luthier Kit does use a magnetic hex pickup rather than piezo pickups.  We have found the magnetic hex pickup to offer better channel separation than the piezos, resulting in much better overall sound quality.

#29 tjontheroad

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Posted 24 November 2015 - 12:34 AM

Hello new member here. I recently bought the the AT-200 and breakout box, complete feature pack, and MIDI Designer. I basically bought into the whole system. Hooked it all up and I'm finding it completely unusable due to what I'm now reading here is an interface issue that has been known for nearly two years. Seriously? Why is this product still being sold? I should not have to make any user modifications to get it work as advertised.

At this point I can only expect Antares to return my money for the feature pack as I return the AT-200 back to the dealer. I'll already be out the cost of return shipping of the guitar and the MIDI Designer app. Not a happy camper here.

FWIW, I am still interested in the ATG technology. I would have bought the ATG-1 pedal instead if I had known of this issue beforehand. At this point however, I'm inclined not to unless there's some recourse here.

#30 Henrik

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 05:50 PM

View Posttjontheroad, on 24 November 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

Hello new member here. I recently bought the the AT-200 and breakout box, complete feature pack, and MIDI Designer. I basically bought into the whole system. Hooked it all up and I'm finding it completely unusable due to what I'm now reading here is an interface issue that has been known for nearly two years. Seriously? Why is this product still being sold? I should not have to make any user modifications to get it work as advertised.

If you are hearing the ticking issue when sending MIDI CC messages to the guitar, I am sure you have also read that when the volume on the guitar is turned all the way up, this is not an issue.  The ticking only happens when the volume is not turned all the way up.

View Posttjontheroad, on 24 November 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

At this point I can only expect Antares to return my money for the feature pack as I return the AT-200 back to the dealer. I'll already be out the cost of return shipping of the guitar and the MIDI Designer app. Not a happy camper here.

Please email us directly: http://www.autotunef...ort/contact.php

View Posttjontheroad, on 24 November 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

FWIW, I am still interested in the ATG technology. I would have bought the ATG-1 pedal instead if I had known of this issue beforehand. At this point however, I'm inclined not to unless there's some recourse here.

Please email us directly if you have any questions about the ATG-1: http://www.autotunef...ort/contact.php

Thank you!

#31 tjontheroad

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 06:28 PM

View PostHenrik, on 25 November 2015 - 05:50 PM, said:

If you are hearing the ticking issue when sending MIDI CC messages to the guitar, I am sure you have also read that when the volume on the guitar is turned all the way up, this is not an issue.  The ticking only happens when the volume is not turned all the way up.



Please email us directly: http://www.autotunef...ort/contact.php



Please email us directly if you have any questions about the ATG-1: http://www.autotunef...ort/contact.php

Thank you!

I far as I know, the volume control was all the way up. But, I will verify that later today. I did attempt an email to your customer service at the same time I posted here. I did not yet get a reply. I'll check my junk folder too.

No matter what, I'm still at a loss as to why this known issue isn't fixed after so long. There's no other place but this forum where it is documented. I understand this is something Peavey should have corrected as they are the hardware manufacturer and Antares is only the software provider. That said, this product is being cross marketed with the software packs and the guitar together. Both companies should come to a resolution.

FWIW, I'm sorry to come to this forum in a negative way. I wish that was not needed to be.

#32 tjontheroad

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Posted 25 November 2015 - 06:34 PM

dup

#33 cags12

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 11:17 PM

Henrik - before the forum gets closed.
Did this ever find a permanent solution while not cutting out the audio signal to the Pin 8?
I'm am willing to add/solder electronic components if required.

#34 Henrik

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 07:12 PM

View Postcags12, on 12 August 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

Henrik - before the forum gets closed.
Did this ever find a permanent solution while not cutting out the audio signal to the Pin 8?
I'm am willing to add/solder electronic components if required.

I am afraid that this issue was never resolved.  Cutting the wire work, however then you need the second regular 1/4" chord from the output jack.  Having the volume all the way up should also work as we have talked about previously in this post/forum.  On the ATG Luthier Kit, we do of course not support audio out on the 8-pin due to this issue.

#35 cags12

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 09:58 PM

Thank you. I was afraid you would say that.

Would you know if Peavey even looked at this at all and reported any progress? Any hint would probably help if we wanted to try something.

#36 Henrik

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 06:03 PM

View Postcags12, on 14 August 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

Thank you. I was afraid you would say that.

Would you know if Peavey even looked at this at all and reported any progress? Any hint would probably help if we wanted to try something.

Not sure.  If I understand this correctly, the difficulty is where all of the wires are bundled together at the back side of the jack (where the lugs are) inside the guitar.  I am not sure if unbundling the wires there (cutting the tape around the wires) and spreading these apart might help. Also, the 8-pin cable is also part of the problem.

#37 cags12

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:08 PM

Henrik, I have given this a thought, probably too late now but at least something that could work for people that still want to get this issue somewhat MITIGATED.

The solution that is in my head consist on adding a method to dynamically disengage the pin 8 of the DIN connector from the Audio Output only when a 1/4" inch plug is present but re-engage it when it is not preset.

This would allow to use MIDI and the regular 1/4" Jack at the same time without the ticking sound. But at the same time, if the guitarist wanted to only use the 8-pin connector for all MIDI + Power + Audio Output, it would also be possible (of course, with the ticking problem).

How, you ask? Enter the 9-lug Jack (better) or the Switchcraft 13b or 14b Jack.

http://www.stewmac.c...tereo_Jack.html
http://www.switchcra...aspx?Parent=952

So the idea is to instead of running the audio cable from the Vol Pot to the DIN 8, it would come from the 1/4" Jack. The magic would be in shorting Lug 8 and Lug 3 (image below) and then run a cable from lug 2 to the pin 8 of the DIN connector carrying the hot signal. Ground I believe do not need to be treated specially, only for shielding.

Thanks to the mechanism of these Jacks, Audio will be routed to the DIN connector ONLY when there is no 1/4" plug inserted.
Posted Image

I believe this would mitigate the problem, what do you think?

#38 GuitarBuilder

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 10:05 PM

I wonder if a better cable wouldn't work - has anyone tried a cable with shielded conductors?

#39 Henrik

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 10:55 PM

View Postcags12, on 16 August 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

Henrik, I have given this a thought, probably too late now but at least something that could work for people that still want to get this issue somewhat MITIGATED.

The solution that is in my head consist on adding a method to dynamically disengage the pin 8 of the DIN connector from the Audio Output only when a 1/4" inch plug is present but re-engage it when it is not preset.

This would allow to use MIDI and the regular 1/4" Jack at the same time without the ticking sound. But at the same time, if the guitarist wanted to only use the 8-pin connector for all MIDI + Power + Audio Output, it would also be possible (of course, with the ticking problem).

How, you ask? Enter the 9-lug Jack (better) or the Switchcraft 13b or 14b Jack.

http://www.stewmac.c...tereo_Jack.html
http://www.switchcra...aspx?Parent=952

So the idea is to instead of running the audio cable from the Vol Pot to the DIN 8, it would come from the 1/4" Jack. The magic would be in shorting Lug 8 and Lug 3 (image below) and then run a cable from lug 2 to the pin 8 of the DIN connector carrying the hot signal. Ground I believe do not need to be treated specially, only for shielding.

Thanks to the mechanism of these Jacks, Audio will be routed to the DIN connector ONLY when there is no 1/4" plug inserted.
Posted Image

I believe this would mitigate the problem, what do you think?

Not sure.  I quite sure you have much more knowledge than do I in this matter. Couldn't hurt to try.

#40 cags12

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 08:49 PM

View PostGuitarBuilder, on 16 August 2017 - 10:05 PM, said:

I wonder if a better cable wouldn't work - has anyone tried a cable with shielded conductors?

Well I have performed a few tests and I can conclude, the noise does not get introduced by any of the connections inside the guitar. It gets introduced mostly by the cable as GuitarBuilder implied but surprisingly (or not) partially by the AT-200B.

My test consisted in:

1 - Sending MIDI signals from Controller to ATG via a Y cable and Audio via Guitar regular Jack = No ticking sound
2 - Sending MIDI signals from Controller to ATG via 8Pin cable - AT-200B and Audio via Guitar regular Jack = YES Ticking sound
3 - Sending MIDI signals from Controller to NOTHING via 8Pin cable - AT-200B and Audio out of AT-200B regular Jack = YES loudest ticking sound.
4 - Sending MIDI signals from Controller to NOTHING via AT-200B ONLY (no 8Pin cable connected) and Audio out of AT-200B regular Jack = YES quieter ticking sound.

Conclusion:
- Cable is the biggest contributor
- AT-200B still contributes partially

Partial Solution:
- Build/Buy a better shielded cable
- Nothing to do on the AT-200B as far as I know. But probably build your own breakout box (should not be that hard).

Ignore the iRig part.

Posted Image

All of this is based on my tests!!





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